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From: Bill Burns
Date: 08 Feb 2005
Time: 18:19:16 -0800
Remote Name: 64.123.58.76
This is a test posting to determine if this discussion group is functioning
From: Paul Burns
Remote Name: 189.164.133.70
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Date: 06-12-27
Time: 13:39:27 -0800
STATUS OF HAPLOGROUP R1B1C7 RESEARCH The following is a December 2006 posting on the Genealogy-DNA-Rootsweb site. Its author is one of the foremost experts on northwest Irish pedigrees. Fortunately for those of us who are Haplogroup R1b1c7 (12 of our 81 members so far), the author also is, and we can learn much from this example of combining genetic genealogy with traditional genealogy. Granted, we have a long ways to go, but John is showing us that we can expect some day to get there. Project members who have a different haplogroup can expect similar analyses—some day but hopefully soon. Paul Burns I'm aiming this email primarily at David Wilson, the project administrator of the R1b1c7 project, but others interested in the NW Irish may find some of it interesting. I recently received my full complement of 37 markers from FTDNA on the R1b1c7 project. The surname is McLaughlin and we have a solid paper trail to the townland of Rathdonnell, Kilmacrenan parish, Donegal. I am now fairly convinced we are descended from the MacLochlainn sept of Derry and the Foyle shore of Inishowen in Donegal (because of other matches with McLaughlins with known roots in the Donegal/Tyrone area). The MacLochlainn sept of Derry/Inishowen is descended from a long line of Irish High Kings by legend descended from Nial 'of the Nine Hostages through his son Eoghan or Owen. Their original territory was centered mostly in what was then called Tir-Owen, which included parts of what is now co. Donegal (Magh Ith, Inishowen), later taken over by the O'Donnells of Cenel Conaill (descended from Conall, another son of Nial). The first MacLochlainn to make his appearance in the annals is Ardgar MacLochlainn in 1051 A.D.). He was the son of Lochlan - on this all agree - but the pedigrees give two different versions of his descent. According to Rawlinson B.502 (c. 1120 AD), Ardgar was the son of Lochlan and great-grandson of the Irish High King, Domhnall 'of Armagh', who d. 980 A.D. A different pedigree is given in the slightly later Book of Leinster (c. 1170 AD). Here we find Lochlan listed as a son of Mael sechlainn, who d. 996 AD. From Mael sechlainn the pedigree goes back to Domhnall, the king of Aileach and brother of Nial glundubh, the Irish High KIng who d. 919 A.D. It is impossible to determine which pedigree is correct based on earlier genealogical manuscripts or the Irish annals. Irish authorities have debated the relative merits of each descent for at least a century, some taking one side or the other, but in recent years Irish scholarship has settled on a descent from Domhnall, son of Aedh Finnleith (O Corrain, Simms, O Ceallaigh). If we bow to the opinions of current Irish historians than the MacLochlainn sept of Donegal split off the main stem of the Ui Neill and Cenel Eoghain sometime prior to 876 AD. (the date of the death of Aedh Finnleith). If we follow the version in Rawlinson (now in disrepute) they would have split off somewhat later as one of the sons of Domhnall 'of Armagh', who d. 980 A.D. You can follow the branching of the Cenel Eoghain in traditional Irish pedigrees from this site: _http://members.aol.com/lochlan/septs.htm_ (http://members.aol.com/lochlan/septs.htm Both versions of the MacLochlainn pedigree are traced here. Another Ui Neill sept of Inishowen in Donegal were the O Dochartaighs (O Doherty), like the O'Donnells, said to descend from Conall gulban, another son of Nial 'of the Nine Hostages.' The O Doherty clan have a large DNA project on FTDNA and I know many of the DNA samples have been added to the R1b1c7 project. Their pedigree, like that of their kinsmen the O'Donnells, is much less traceable in the Irish annals than that of the MacLochlainns. Yet there is little question that the early portions of their pedigree are correct - the annals are full of Cenel Conaill claimants to the High Kingship of Ireland competing with their Cenel Eoghain counterparts in Tryone. Whether one believes Nial 'of the Nine Hostages' himself was an historical character or myth, there isn't much doubt two rival groups in NW Ireland related by blood were for centuries in competition for the Kingship of Aileach, the dominant political force in the north of Ireland. The traditional date for the death of Nial 'of the Nine Hostages' is 405 A.D.; but O'Rahilly ;and others, based on notices in the annals for reputed sons, think he actually died somewhat later, perhaps in the mid-5th century. The O'Donnells and O Dochartaighs branched of the main stem of the Ui Neill sometime during this period, perhaps circa 430 AD. It's difficult to give an exact date when the O'Donnells and O Dochartaighs split apart because the pedigrees are untraceable in the annals. But it really doesn't make that much difference. Between the MacLochlainns, who split off possibly as early as 850 AD. and the O Dochartaighs, who split off circa 450 AD., you have prime examples of two major septs of the Ui Neill who split apart some 400 years later. It could be even later than that if the MacLochlainn pedigree in Rawlinson is correct (c. 950). To my woefully untrained eye, I can see little or no difference between O Dochartaigh and MacLochlainn DNA in modernday descendants of both septs. Both are clearly NW Irish or Ui Neill. But beyond that I can see no distinctive markers that might help distinguish Cenel Conaill septs from Cenel Eoghain septs, both said to have branched off the main stem of the Ui Neill sometime circa 450 A.D. with different sons of Nial. There are a lot of other Ui Neill septs that can be brought into this DNA analysis. I mainly mention the O Dochartaighs and MacLochlainns because there is a fair amount of DNA sampling done on both septs and the names are distinctive. Another Cenel Conaill sept with a distinctive name and at least a few DNA samples are the O Gallaghers of Donegal. They too could be brought into the analysis as a Cenel Conaill sept. In addition to these surnames, there are a lot of NW Irish matches in Connacht that also match the NW Irish modal, including Flanagan, McGovern, McManus, O Dowd, O'Rourke, MacDermott and other names also said to descend from the same stock as the Ui Neill in NW Ireland. They also are matching the NW Irish modal. These by pedigree are said to descend from brothers of Nial 'of the Nine hostages' and as such are not technically Ui Neill but Dal Cuinn or Connachta. I don't think any modern historian believes in the tale of the Connachta descending from brothers of Nial - but kin they were, as DNA reveals. Trinity College clearly believed this was so as the following list of Ui Neill surnames from their DNA study shows. (O')Gallagher (12), (O')Boyle (9), (O')Doherty (5), O'Donnell (4), O'Connor (3), Cannon (3), Bradley (2), O'Reilly (2), Flynn (2), (Mc)Kee (2), Campbell (1), Devlin (1), Donnelly (1), Egan (1), Gormley (1), Hynes (1), McCaul (1), McGovern (1), McLoughlin (1), McManus (1), McMenamin (1), Molloy (1), O'Kane (1), O'Rourke (1), and Quinn (1). What about all the NW Irish matches in Scotland? There are lots of NW Irish matches in Galloway and in such lowland Scottish surnames as Elliot and Ewing, to name just a few. Is there any way to distinguish between them and their Irish counterparts in DNA analysis? Is any dating possible on the basis of STR diversity or distinctive DNA patterns within the overall NW Irish context? How did NW Irish matches come to be scattered across lowland Scotland and even northern England (Northumbria). The Sykes data seems to place NW Irish in at least small percentages in every district of Scotland. Lastly, we would be remiss without a few remarks on the most famous NW Irish family of them all, the O'Neills. Ed O'Neill and I recently had a paper published on some odd aspects of their DNA. _http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf_ (http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf According to traditional Irish pedigrees, the O'Neills split off from the ain stem of the northern Ui Neill dynasty sometime around 950 AD, through a son of Domhnall 'of Armagh' Ua Neill, himself often said to be the first O'Neill in history. In fact the Rawlinson manuscript makes both the O'Neill and MacLochlainns descend from two different sons of Domhnall 'of Armagh', who d. 980 A.D. But the O'Neill pedigree is unverifiable in the annals and O Ceallaigh has cast doubt on the accuracy of their traditional descent (Gleanings from Ulster History). So if the McLaughlins match the NW Irish or Ui Neill modal one might assume the O'Neills do as well. Such is not the case though. The largest group of O'Neills in Tyrone today do not match the NW Irish modal. You can read about it in the above mentioned article if interested. And what does this have to say about the Anradan kindred of Argyll in Scotland, said to descend from the line of the O'Neills somewhat later? I am referring here to the families of MacSweeney of Ireland, Maclachlan of Scotland, Lamont and MacEwen of Otter, all said to descend from Anradan, supposedly a son of Aodh Athlaman, the King of Aileach and ancestor of the Ulster O'Neills, who died in 1033 AD? All of these surnames are woefully under represented (if at all) in current DNA sampling. Is this Anradan pedigree just another example of mediaeval fakery or is there a kernel of truth to the NW Irish (or in this case, Ui Neill) ancestry of certain Argyll clans? And what in the world happened to the O'Neills of Ulster? And when? It's obvious some kind of NPE occurred at some point in the O'Neill line since every other NW clan said to be Ui Neill very nicely matches the NW Irish or Ui Neill modal. Another mystery are the southern Ui Neill, said to descend from several sons of Nial, including Laeghaire, well-known in Irish history for his confrontations with St. Patrick. These were settled in the midlands of Ireland, in counties Meath and Westmeath and surrounding areas. So far, unlike the Connachta in the west of Ireland, few if any surnames have been identified from this branch of the Ui Neill in DNA samples. They remain a total blank as far as DNA is concerned. The are just of few of the things that have been driving me crazy about the R1b1c7 haplogroup. John